Epicurus’s Quote on God

I do not believe in a “God” so much as I have an understanding that allows for all possibilities.

But the strongest argument against this quote would be this.

God is both able and willing to stop true evil. But I don’t think that true evil exists in this world. Which would be the greater evil, allowing humans to live a life without strife, suffering, and obstacles or allowing humans the right to choose for themselves their actions.

If God were to step into the role of peace-keeper and become the sole authority, would there be such a thing as free will? Isn’t freedom the highest of ideals?

I think, by allowing evil to exist, God is actually giving us sentient beings a great gift. Without evil, there could be no freedom.

So, if there were a God and he wanted us to have free will and just watched us hurt each other wouldn’t that be evil?

Look at it like this; you have two grown children and one of your kids puts your other child on a quartering device of some kind and was slowly ripping the child’s limbs off. Would you say stop even if they are grown adults making their own decisions? Could you watch that happen because you believe in freedom? Yes, it’s illegal, but if it weren’t illegal or no one would ever find out, could you still watch this happen?

If we are all Gods children then he is letting us hurt each other. I don’t know about you, but if someone let their children kill each other for the reason of “Hey, I believe in true freedom for all” I’d say they are psycho and evil and most Americans would want that person at the very least put in jail forever.

Perhaps he sees everything that happens in this life as preparation for the next.

So when we perceive someone dying, they’re actually just transferring to the next life. I know this sounds rather convenient, and there isn’t any solid evidence that this even happens, but if it does it validates God watching without action because.

So, if one believes in any sort of afterlife (not just Heaven and Hell), it could be that everything we do in this life will somehow help us become more in the next. Even violence and evil. Even enduring violence and evil.

Personally, I would hate to live in a world without evil or conflict.

Just curious…how would we know what good is without evil?

If there wasn’t evil there wouldn’t necessarily be “good” as in not “evil”, however, even if there was no bad or evil people there would be different levels of goodness. For example, you could still say, “he has done a lot of good for the community” because you can base it on everyone elses goodness.

For any of this to matter you’d have to blindly accept that there are such things as “good” and “evil.” Any amount of experience should tell you that the exact same event can be considered both evil and good depending on your perspective.

Assuming that all life can be singly categorized by such meaningless and subjective adjectives is pathetically limiting.

Life is richer than that.

True, depending on your perspective good things can be evil. This quote is not talking about that though. This quote is talking about such “evils” as, for example, 10 year olds getting cancer.

If there were no religion, there would be a lot less disagreements. Think about gay rights, abortion, religious wars, sacrifices, etc. None of this would exist without religion. Women’s rights wouldn’t even be an issue if it weren’t for religious beliefs saying women are less than men.

With less or no disagreements, good and evil wouldn’t matter as much. I WISH that good and evil didn’t matter, however, they do. No matter what side you are on, anti-religious, Nazi, Buddhist, or just insane, having your own 10 year old child get cancer, for example is sad, and that is the evil he is talking about and that evil will always exist.

> Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

This is what I believe – he is able, but not willing. Except for one thing: “…then he is malevolent” is a presumptive fallacy. It’s a “false dilemma” which presumes that there are no other options available. What other options might available? There are many, including that the exercise and protection of free will is more precious morally than the prevention of evil.

You are right, there are options. The quote is not saying there are no options. The quote says is he able but not willing.

Look at it this way. You have a gun and a cell phone and you walk by an ally, and you see an older man yelling at a younger girl, let’s say 15. It starts getting worse and he hits her, she screams for help and he then grabs her mouth and tells her to shut up. She is fighting back but can’t get away. He hits her head against the concrete wall. She is now bleeding but still awake, but now quiet. He now takes off her clothes and starts to rape her. Meanwhile, you are just sitting there… watching…

If you are telling me right now that you would not shoot him, pull out you gun and say something, call for help on your cell phone, or even go get someone else, you would be evil in my mind. There is NO excuse for not doing ANYTHING AT ALL but watch other than you yourself are wishing harm upon someone. That, by definition, is malevolent.

You are telling me that the right to let someone kill, rape, or hurt someone else is more important than following a few pretty universal human laws. I do find a problem with that and that is malevolent no matter how you put it, because you are wishing harm on someone else whether you are doing it or someone else.

I don’t think it would be right to think of god as a “Father” figure. I’m not sure he would have (if he even exists) the same love for us as a father would, he would have much more knowledge of the consequences of our actions as a whole than we do.

Perhaps it’s best that your 10 year old daughter dies of cancer at age ten- what if she would have been brutally raped and murdered at age eleven if she hadn’t died before that was allowed to happen? What if she were to grow up to become the next Hitler?

You could easily combat this response by asking why god would allow those bad things to happen.

Perhaps god doesn’t have as much control over fate as the church would have us believe.

I suppose that my beliefs, in the end, fall squarely under the first part of the quote. God is not omnipotent, he is just like any other god in mythology.

In Norse mythology, Balder was killed by Hod (the blind god of winter). If a god is omnipotent, can a god die?

This raises the question: How does one kill God?

@TECHWRAITH you forget about it.

The only issue with that argument is that, all of those are evil. Cancer, Hitler, rape, etc are all evil. If he has no control over our fate or evil or can be killed as in the Norse mythology, God isn’t all powerful at all. This goes directly back to the quote

The point that I was trying to make was this:

God is not omnipotent. He does exist in some form. He has sway over our world, so people worship him.

We don’t call him god because he’s omnipotent, people call him god because he’s a jealous god. See, even the bible proves my point.

I believe this quote says it best:

“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the lord your God, am a jealous God” (Exodus 20:4-5).

What the hell is he jealous of if he’s omnipotent?

There is no god that what is so obvious. Our current earth is exactly what it would look like if there was no god.

Everyone loves the whole ‘yin yang’ balanced equation of ‘without evil we would not know good’…. really? So the condition of ‘NO pencil in eye’ can only fully be appreciated following the condition of ‘pencil in eye’? Magical thinkers are so uncomfortable with the ‘gaps’ in our understanding.. they want it to ‘make sense’. If there was a god of triangles, he would have three sides; people MAKE things ‘work’ in their minds according to what they know of the universe. Personally I LOVE not knowing; it is precisely THAT that IS the purpose the ‘Unicorn set’ seeks to know! Don’t know? KEEP LOOKING. KEEP ASKING. KEEP GOING FORWARD.

If we always had a “pencil in the eye” we would never know what “no pencil in the eye” is like without trying it out at least thinking about it. Without evil our concept of good would be completely different. It would be levels of goodness, but then those levels of goodness would have levels of evil, that for us in our world, are good things. There is always an opposite.

I agree with this part Oscar: “at least thinking about it”

It need not be more than a thought experiment. There doesn’t ACTUALLY have to be the opposite of ‘no pencil in the eye’ for us to consider what the alternative would be like. Just as there need not be ACTUAL Unicorns for us to picture, as vividly as if we had seen one yesterday, a great steed with a horn on it’s head… in any color of the rainbow no less! ‘For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction’ is a law of PHYSICS not Philosophy.

I agree with you. You just need to think about it and that is what Philosophy is all about

This really only covers one definition of evil, we can all choose what we do in this world, from believing in God to stealing or murder. If God was to force you to believe in him, where he to not allow you to have any choices would this not be evil in it’s own right?

In society we have rules which govern what we can and can not do, but we can still choose to follow these rules or not, surely this is exactly the same case with God?

One last thing before I go.

Whilst I believe that there is a God I wouldn’t put my self into any religious group, but I have a question for you.

If at the end of my life there is no God and I rot away then I have lost very little, in fact the only thing I will have lost is time which would have been wasted.

However what if there is a God and I chose not to believe in him? Then I go to hell for eternity (or so the bible says), so surely it is in my best interest to believe in a God, at the end of my life it can only be a win-win situation for me?

The answer to your question is a very simple one. What tells you that the God you chose is the right one? Let’s just say you picked the right major religion, Christianity in your case as you mentioned the Bible, how do you know that yours is the right one and not Mormonism, Born Again, Lutheran, or Catholicism? What tells you that ANY religion out there (which is enumerable considering all the religions that have died off) to date is the right one?

Let’s just say God didn’t care what religion you were and just based it on if you were a good person; then wouldn’t a belief in no God be the same as a belief in the wrong God as long as you were a good person? Since Buddhism and Hinduism don’t actually believe in a “God” and Hindus don’t even actually believe their Gods are real, but more of a sort of dream or teachings, then wouldn’t you be saying that everyone who didn’t believe in a Monotheistic religion parish in hell simply because they picked or were never taught about the “right” God?

Finally, what tells you that God is a good person? What if God just put us all here with free will because he wanted to watch us all suffer? Then once you die he puts you right back into another “game” to watch you suffer?

In actuality it’s not a win-win situation because, at the VERY LEAST unless you happen to pick the right one (if there even is a right one) you will have won something. That something might not even be a good thing. What if God actually ended up being evil? The chance of God+picking the correct one is less than the lottery.

Although the chance of winning the lottery is slim, there is proof that you can win. On the other hand, religion has no proof of any chance to win; it’s purely faith. It would be a better means of your time to go out and spend all the time you do worshiping and donating money to the church on buying lotto tickets.

Here’s my thought… God is the unknown. As humans, we deny the existence of it or we fear it. I do not fear it or deny it because I know it cannot interfere with me. It isn’t willing nor able to interfere. Therefore, it is nothing and everything. It is the unknown.

From what you write I assume you’re a Deist, correct? You don’t believe in divine miracles and such because you don’t believe God can interfere with the world. My question to you is, then why call him God? God by definition is (excluding the slang and adjectives [source: New Oxford American Dictionary]):
1 (monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
2 (god) (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity

God by your definition isn’t a God at all, but more of a totally different entity which is completely separate from our world therefore powerless over nature, animals, and humans as well.

The intrinsic difference between believers (no quotes please) and atheists is just that. I as a believer choose to believe that God exists. That he is all powerful and that evil exists as well. Because he gave me free will, obstacles must exist to form my character by the choices I take to overcome adversities. So I don’t complain that God didn’t do one thing or another for me because what comes my way is allowed by him to shape me. I don’t need proof of any of this because I choose to believe that. It’s not based on fact. I choose to believe this. Choice exists. You choose not to believe it. You need fact. Nothing will ever prove God to you because you choose not to believe in his existence. You may deride this comment by equalizing God with a mythical or fictional character but, it is not the same, because I do not believe in those characters to be responsible for my creation. In the end, no proof will ever make me doubt. While, in the end, no proof will ever make you believe.

There is plenty of proof that would make me believe. Such as, someone showing me God, someone praying for things and each one is granted, an amputee who prayed for an arm back and gets one, or he could just speak to everyone on Earth at one time. If there is a God and he is this powerful it wouldn’t be hard for any of this.

May I ask why, when in no other case, you choose to believe in something with no solid proof or facts? I understand you believe, but why do you base an entire lifetime on a belief with no proof or facts?

There is a premise that you must accept in order to truly believe. That premise is that you don’t have all the answers and you don’t need them because so long as you believe in God all things are for good, even the bad stuff. So it becomes a self-satisfying premise. You have to understand also, that the whole point of my or any religion is not to subjugate but to elucidate, and not things of fact but the more subjective and ultimately human factors that guide our lives and interactions with others. As far as demanding proof, again, I would never ask God to prove his existence to me because I believe he exists.

I’ve never personally felt there is any clean objective evidence to suggest that there is some sort of entity that is conscious(as we know it) and involved in our affairs as human beings.

Never had a need for faith. I go by what I can observe.
If there is a god, how could he hold it against me that I use the mind he gave me to make the best observation I can?
If I fail, dude should made me with more of a disposition towards blind belief.

I don’t discredit an “influence” in the universe(or beyond it) but it seems clear to me that trying to contemplate a god that is anything remotely like what is found in any major monotheistic religion, or even many polytheistic ones, is purely an exercise in detached imagination.

Awesome, i think i might write a post based off this exact quote “If there is a god, how could he hold it against me that I use the mind he gave me to make the best observation I can?”

God is Spirit, God is Holy. Mankind possesses the knowledge of good and evil. Man who knows not God, does not see his own evil, and walks in his own ways. Who will know God’s will, if he were not come from God? What man would present his own ability to show God’s ability to overcome evil? Is not life better than death? Who can prevent death if he had not overcome death? But yet you are alive and cannot see God because you do not call on him God.

Let me fill all you amateaurs in….
Everything is never as it seems.
Death- only temporary
Disabled people- will be perfected
Lost family- can be eternal

There is always an advesary to a noble man.

God did not send us here, he did not make us suffer,
Every single being on this planet including all those who have died and who have yet to come and yes even you athiests.
Walked, talked, and lived with god.
We all chose to come here, we all knew that our lives would be hard and the world would become corrupt but we willingly said yes beucase we knew that if we passed the test the reward would be much greater than any imagination that has ever lived on this earth could think of. . . and one more thing, as a sister to you, spending time on little indolent quotes is what started this whole issue, a cunning yet childish plan to be the one standing on your pedistal looking dumb and blind as a bat.
Have an awesome life.

I’m sorry, are you talking in theist code?

What the hell? Are you talking about reincarnation? That’s in no way Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim. What are you trying to say?

Also, I did not choose to come here and that is in no way a indolent quote. That quote has caused thousands of years of discussion.

An atheist friend of mine asked me this same question. Being a Christian, I see this differently and think the explanation is very simple. I knew that he had gone away to college a few years ago, and that it didn’t work out well. He ended up moving back home after the failure. I asked him what his parents had said when he wanted to go to college. He told me they thought he wasn’t ready yet. “Did they prevent you from going?” I asked. “No,” he responded, “They let me go.” “So they knew it was a bad idea, yet they let you go anyway. Do they love you?” “Of course,” he replied. “Could they have stopped you from going?” “Yes,” he explained, “I was depending upon their financial support.”
“So your parents didn’t want you to go, could have stopped you but didn’t, and yet you know they love you. How can you explain this?” He saw that his parents loved him enough to allow him to make his own decisions; he was not their prisoner.
In the same way, God allows us the freedom to reject or embrace His good and perfect will. He’s not interested in his children loving Him out of obligation or force, but out of free will.
When we see evil in the world, let’s not blame Him; it is we who author the evil around us. (Read any newspaper.) If a loving parent warns a child not to play in the street, yet the child disobeys and gets hurt, is it sensible to ask, “Why did Daddy let this happen?” Let’s stop blaming God with our fancy philosophy and take responsibility for our own sin.

I’d thought of an answer to Epicurus years ago. It’s not that hard to solve.

I call it the Artist model of God. First, you make the assumption that God created all of time and space. As the creator, he has the will to make it anything he wants. Epicurus’ question posit that he must be malevolent because he created so much evil.

By that token, is an painter who paints a picture of torture evil? Is a film maker who makes a film with rape and murder evil? Of course not, the artist just creates for the same of creation.

Perhaps the gods are similar. Perhaps they create entire universes for the sake of art. Some dark to balance the light. Like some clockwork artist, they build in mechanisms to drive their universes, complex cogs that are beautiful to watch in motion.

Of course I don’t believe any of that. There is no evidence for such a god. I’m an atheist. I just dreamed all that up as the only possible answer to Epicurus.

This topic forum thing was posted quite a while ago, so I’m not even sure if you’ll read my reasoning to this quote, but I’ll respond anyway. I’m a theistic philosopher so I know what I’m talking about when I say this.

To the first part about omnipotence. The definition of God is an all powerful being, so no matter what, atheistic or theistic, God is going to be omnipotent. God does, in fact, have the power to stop evil.

To the second part about benevolence and malevolence. There is a reason he does not eliminate all the evil in the world, and the reason is simple. Human kind is evil. According to the Bible, if you merely call someone a bad word, than you are murdering them, in a sense. Everyone in the world has probably done some sort of evil, whether it’s big or small. If God were to eliminate evil, God would be eliminating human kind as a whole. Life would not exist. Because he is benevolent, he allows us to live, for the greater good of having life. The existence of evil is left on Earth for the greater good. An extremely simple example of this would be to imagine you’re going to the dentist. By going through the pain and suffering of the the dentist drilling at your teeth, the greater good of having good oral hygiene comes forth. Note that this is just a really simple example so don’t dwell on this example too much.

After being in philosophy courses, there is actually another part of this quote that goes something like this. “Is God both able and willing, but unaware of the evil? Than he is not omniscient.”

This part is basically answered in my explanation about benevolence. God is all knowing, but there is reason he doesn’t eliminate all evil, which is for the greater good.

Hope my explanation helped you think outside the atheists views for just a little while. I’m not trying to convert you or anything. I’m just trying to point out that this quote doesn’t have ground to disprove Christianity, nor does any other quote. This quote, by no means, “takes care of about 99% of ‘faith’ based arguments.”

If all human kind is evil, and was made TO BE evil, than wouldnt “evil” not be evil? Also, whos to even say it’s good to live? First you say everyone is evil, which in turn wouldn’t make it evil. (Just as if everyone, literally, everyone had to smoke, it wouldn’t be banned) and then you say that its good we are living? Thats merely an opinion. If I dont want to live for example, then he’s NOT doing good, as I DONT want to be living.

And by the way, if you say it was because Adam and Eve… eh hem, if he couldn’t even make humans not eat an apple, then he is not all powerful, and obviously, that story completely shows that the devil is MORE powerful than God himself.

excuse me but your epicurus is showing

you’d just be surprised when you realize that God really exist. it’s either you’re still living here in earth or you just died and your soul was sent to…wherever?

how can you explain those people who was possessed by evil spirits, but was delivered and saved in Jesus’ name? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8adieOJV3io

how come that houses could be built in great form if there’s no creator? i felt His presence in my life when i’ve became an active born-again, and blessings pour in my life. just like a father, He gives me special rewards when i’m good, but when i do not follow, he gives me a lesson. if you continue to beieve in your philosopy and there are real hell, then let’s see if your philosopy can save you from hell. it’s your life. just be careful of your beliefs.

i think those believer who talked to you here was sent by God to convince you, but do you still don’t believe and listen?

Obviously a quote from a guy who has never read the bible.

Well, obviously, this is from Greece…

A great house can’t be built with any creator, good or bad. Living things do build and modify themselves. Proven and accepted even by the pope. And the people who are saved by Jesus are save in the same way people who think they are an orange are saved by a doctor or themselves. It’s all in there head. Being possessed is a sign of schizophrenia so what point are you trying to make by that?

I love Juans post of course he didn’t read the bible since there was no bible to read there had yet to be the coming of christ. An to those they preach good or evil there is no such thing as good or evil in a pure form. Good and evil are based on ones views so what may be considered “good” to one group is considered “evil” by another. So who is to say what is good or evil there is merely actions and re-actions. The action itself has no consideration of being good or evil its merely an action its people views that place the label of the action of being good or evil upon it. Its God good and the devil evil? I think its more of a sense “God” is purity and the “Devil” is corruption God being the sum of one’s view where the Devil is but an outside source meant to cause one to stray from their views. Which in this sense everyone has the ability to become “God” or the “devil” by either staying true to their views or allowing corruption to take hold.

Have you considered that this is only an effective argument against an undefined theistic or deistic God?

If this argument is used against the God of the Bible, then it fails, because that’s not whom it is indicting these charges against.

Consider the points.
The Biblical God is both God and omnipotent, so arguments 1 and 4 disappear. He is able, because He is omnipotent, and whether He is willing is a matter of personal opinion, if you will. Consider this:

He is not willing:
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

He is willing:

“For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:21-26)

This explains why there is evil in the first place–man did it by volition (free will). Free will is not inherently evil, but it was used for evil. God is not guilty since He did not do this (otherwise it wouldn’t have been free will). This also makes clear that death (evil, etc) will be destroyed. Now, for elaboration:

“Before the mountains were born
or you brought forth the earth and the world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God.” (Psalm 90:2)

So, since God is outside of time and eternal, then from a practical standpoint, if He will destroy evil at the end of time, then technically speaking He already has.

From a philosophical standpoint, I would answer Epicurus’ riddle by answering point 3: He is both able and willing. He has in fact already destroyed evil, it just hasn’t happened yet.

Hope this is good food for thought.
~EriK

You will need to read up on Epicurus, despite the quote he did believe in God with what he took as good reasons. Actually not an atheist quote just picked up by them. Weak argument anyway. Fascinating guy in many ways, did some excellent early work on atoms. He was if you didn’t guess from the period of ancient Greece

I find this poem one of the best ive ever read.
I dont believe he was trying to diminish the possiblitlity of there being a God. I just think he was trying to say that how God is explained in gospels and scriptures and things such as, doesnt make sense in rational thought.
Like saying that a hexagon has 20 sides. That would be completely wrong considering that the reason it was given that name is because it has 6 sides. So basicaly its just a contradiction in itself.
What i know for a fact, is that whether there is a God or not, he or she is nothing like described in the Bible or Quaran or any other gospel.
That i am certain of.

This is beautiful. Meaningful discussion of Theism and Atheism with little to no flaming. It is unfortunate the last comment was last year. I only wish I could have found this place sooner in order to take place in the discussion.

Whoops I misunderstood the comment system. Anyways I’ve always been of the opinion that free will is overrated. I believe that the morally correct thing for God to do if he existed would be to have everyone in a constant state of bliss, even if it meant taking a way our free will. My ideal life would be to be hooked up to a machine that pumped endorphins into me constantly.